fargosceneboard in the Forum

[jacko]

The main article in the paper today is about the vandalism at the raven and something that AJ said on here was used. i laughed for a while.

Fargosecneboard, delivering the news since 2004

[heinrick]

will check out

[mat]

'"Not that I’m a fighter. I’ve never been a fighter,” he says.'

way to up the punks, jed.

[Wang]

HERE IS THE WHOLE ARTICLE:

Jed Felix is sneering.

“It’s that stuff right there,” says the 19-year-old bassist for Moorhead hardcore punk band Any Day as he points across Roberts Street.

The focus of his attention is across from Red Raven Espresso Parlor, a downtown Fargo coffee shop and music venue where Any Day and other punk bands often perform. It’s one of the only music venues in town where underage kids can see small concerts, and brutally loud bands are welcome.

Two teenage boys are standing on a green utility box, kicking the vent attached to its top. This is after they’ve lugged their bikes up in order to throw them off.

Youthful hijinks have been even more common inside the Raven, enough so that the owners of the coffeehouse venue sent out a bulletin via the Raven’s MySpace site last month warning that if the problems continue – mostly vandalism and property damage – the shop will stop hosting its noisiest punk concerts, most of which feature hardcore punk bands.
A group of teenagers joke around while hanging out on a recent evening at Red Raven Espresso Parlor in downtown Fargo. Jay Pickthorn / The Forum
A group of teenagers joke around while hanging out on a recent evening at Red Raven Espresso Parlor in downtown Fargo.

“It stinks to do this, but it’s just not working now,” says co-owner Justin Lervik, who opened the Raven in part to provide an all-ages venue. “You feel like a baby sitter more than anything else.”

If the Red Raven ends up further curtailing loud shows – it has already decided to stop booking them on weekdays – it won’t be the first time a local all-ages venue has pulled the plug because of trouble with unruly crowds. It’s becoming a pattern.

‘Downhill fast’

Since it opened about 2 1/2 years ago, the Raven has become ground zero for Fargo’s hardcore scene – local and traveling bands that play an aggressive, heavier brand of punk rock.

But there were others that came before it, including Billiards on Broadway and the VFW in Fargo, and the All Star Bowl in Moorhead – along with a string of now-closed music-only venues.

They experienced the same sort of problems that have been growing in the past few months at the Red Raven – where swaths of black blot out the crude graffiti drawn on bathroom murals, the tops of tables were so carved up they had to be refinished and rambunctious teens have caused other problems inside and outside the coffeehouse.

“It was just too much of a hassle,” says Scott Mensing, manager of the VFW, which stopped doing all-ages shows about a year and a half ago. “It gets to be a lot to watch.”

Hardcore shows at Billiards, which stopped about two years ago, started out fine but began to attract a bad crowd, says owner Marc Oelslager. Soon, says bartender Jake Olson, it looked like “our bathrooms were painted with Sharpies.”

“It’s hard to run security in the bathroom,” Oelslager says.

Olson, who worked as a bouncer at those shows, says he tried to talk to the kids causing trouble to understand where they were coming from – with little success.

“The big thing I noticed is they like to wreck stuff,” he says. “Other people’s stuff.”

That does come with the territory, Lervik admits. “There’s always going to be rowdy, wild kids – which we expected.”

But the problems have intensified recently, coming mostly from newcomers, says Charley Wang, singer for Any Day. “It really went downhill fast,” says Wang, a 20-year-old who along with Felix also promotes shows at the Raven.

Nate Miller, who lives in an apartment above the Raven, says he’s also noticed a difference. There has been more broken glass in front of his building, for instance.

“I still think it’s a good thing,” he says of the Raven, “but they’ve been getting more destructive out front.”

Part of the trouble is many of the younger fans don’t care about the music as much as the surrounding spectacle, say Felix and Wang.

“They’ll pay $5, and they’ll just sit out there,” Wang says. “It doesn’t make any sense.”

‘We’re kids, too’

Lervik blames some of the issues on ignorance. He’s had middle-school-aged patrons ask him for markers to write in the bathroom and check with him to see if it’s OK to gouge the tabletops.

“They think that’s what punk rock is, but they’re wrong. You don’t wreck your friends’ stuff,” says Lervik, who played bass in a punk band called Quick to Fall until last year.

He says the reaction he’s had from customers since posting the bulletin has been positive, and he notes – as did Mensing and Oelslager – that the vandalism and other nuisances are likely the work of a handful of people.

What happens next is uncertain. If the past holds true, all-ages punk shows aren’t long for the Raven. Lervik says he doesn’t want it to come to that and has seen some improvement since limiting them to the weekends.

Nikki Ventzke, 15, says she hopes the Raven will continue to hold concerts (which, it’s worth noting, aren’t all punk).

“This is my favorite venue because I like the atmosphere,” she says during the set break of a packed Raven show earlier this month. “I would be heartbroken if it got shut down. I’d probably stop going to shows.”

It’s not an opinion held by all. On an Internet message board devoted to the local music scene, a user who logs on under the name Gramps relayed a common sentiment: “All it’s doing is alienating the people who go there ... I hope they go belly up.”

Still, Lervik says many of the bands who play the Raven on a regular basis have made it a point to pass along the message to their fans and be more vigilant about keeping a lookout for problems.

Felix did just that after eyeing the two kids across the street fooling around on the utility box, sending over some of his underage friends to talk to them. It makes sense for his younger buddies to talk to them, Felix says, because that way if a fight breaks out every one is a juvenile.

“Not that I’m a fighter. I’ve never been a fighter,” he says.

Age poses an issue beyond legality, though. Keeping the peace is a challenge for many band members and promoters because there isn’t any more separation in age between them than there is between the audience and the bands in the Raven’s cozy back room.

“You can’t yell at them,” Felix says. “In the end, we’re kids, too.”

[Dick Boushee]

This is awesome.

I was surprised to see it on the front page today and ran to a computer to see if a thread started in response. very cool. THis shit should be discussed more often and in the open. Maybe it will cue some new venues opening up, or area businesses seeing a market and opening their doors to more diverse crowds/music. yays all around. BUT that is the ideal situation, it will probably fall on deaf ears and nothing will happen. bummer.

[clint]

I can't help but feel that neil is in some way involved in this, being as he works at the forum and all.

[phil]

Apr 24, 2008 10:47:14 GMT -6 Dick Boushee said:

This is awesome.... Maybe it will cue some new venues opening up, or area businesses seeing a market and opening their doors to more diverse crowds/music.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with this. The article is as negative as it could possibly be. Not a single good thing was said about the scene. It's just another nail in the coffin of all ages venues in Fargo.


"Part of the trouble is many of the younger fans don’t care about the music as much as the surrounding spectacle, say Felix and Wang."

Word.

[Wang]

Apr 24, 2008 11:47:06 GMT -6 phil said:

Part of the trouble is many of the younger fans don’t care about the music as much as the surrounding spectacle, say Felix and Wang

Straight up though, it's true.

Have you noticed the amount of kids that actually watch the bands, to the amount of kids that stand outside the whole time, smoking cigarettes, and "being cool"?

You obviously haven't been to enough shows to realize this.

[Wang]

I also wish they would have interviewed other promoters as well, besides us.

[phil]

I was actually agreeing with you, Charley. Sorry if it didn't come across that way. That line in the article summed the whole situation up quite nicely.

[Wang]

Apr 24, 2008 13:08:55 GMT -6 phil said:

I was actually agreeing with you, Charley. Sorry if it didn't come across that way. That line in the article summed the whole situation up quite nicely.

Yeah, sorry dude, I actually read that wrong, my bad.

I do agree though, it is a very negative article, but that is what's going on right now, and we can't pretend like it's all peaches and cream.

I think positive things can come out of it, like Nick said. Maybe more kids will stop being such douche nozzles after there parents read this, they might hound them, I dunno.

These kids are just ridiculous, I never remember me or any of my friends being so loud, rude, and disrespectful. Shit sucks.

[Dick Boushee]

I wasn't saying its a good thing for portraying the make up/demographic of the scene I was saying it could have positive implications.

I know it paints the scene negatively BUT its true, MOST, not all, but most kids are not their for the music. So yeah, I agree on that part but I can see how this could have positive results 1) people should be aware of their bullshit 2) the community should know about the music scene, negative or not.

[Wang]

Apr 24, 2008 13:37:44 GMT -6 Dick Boushee said:

the community should know about the music scene, negative or not.

Exactly. I think about 95% of this town thinks the music scene is going to a show at Playmakers and seeing Disturbed.

OR, going to a shitty bar and watching a A TRIBUTE TO RUSH or some dumb thing.

[phil]

I hope you guys are right about something good coming out of it. I agree, the article is definitely accurate and as they say, bad publicity is better than none at all.

It just sucks that after all the hard work that goes into "the scene" and all of the awesome times that come out of it, this is what makes the front page of the Fargo Forum.

Oh well.

[beel]

Apr 24, 2008 11:47:06 GMT -6 phil said:

Apr 24, 2008 10:47:14 GMT -6 Dick Boushee said:

This is awesome.... Maybe it will cue some new venues opening up, or area businesses seeing a market and opening their doors to more diverse crowds/music.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with this. The article is as negative as it could possibly be. Not a single good thing was said about the scene. It's just another nail in the coffin of all ages venues in Fargo.


"Part of the trouble is many of the younger fans don’t care about the music as much as the surrounding spectacle, say Felix and Wang."

Word.

Ever since I've gone to shows a good portion of the people there went to socialize instead of going to see the music. Its dumb, but its like this everywhere. Especially with teenage kids in high school, socializing is a huge part at that age so I can see why they do it. Its lame yes, but its understandable. It was just cooler when we went and drank in the parking lot. Of course Id prefer if we all watched the bands.

Also, I see this article as very negative. First off, it paints it very negative and gives authority figures, i.e. cops more reasons to be dicks about shows and noise if they feel like it.

I kind of allude this to how a lot of people were pissed in Minneapolis when the City Pages were printing addresses of house shows. Its just not good publicity, and is I would say a bit one sided in its portrail of the all ages music scene. The writer fails to mention that at 21+ shows people are scrawling with sharpies on bathroom walls of the Aquarium and throwing beers at each other, I would aquate the Red Raven with being in the same category as the Aquarium. One just happens to serve alcohol the other serves stimulates.

Also, I think its lame the writer trolls around this message board

[Dick Boushee]

[quote author=phil board=lame thread=1421 post=17637 time=1209067208

It just sucks that after all the hard work that goes into "the scene" and all of the awesome times that come out of it, this is what makes the front page of the Fargo Forum.
[/quote]

Yeah, I see your point on that. Hundreds of shows go down a year and w/o a hitch and promoters worked their damnedest to get bigger bands here, and especially this year, are exceeding in this task. This along should make front page, not dumb kids scratching balls into coffee tables.

Which brings me to the next point. Anyone going to write a response to this? Like send it it? an intelligent reply that would actually get printed? I think it should be done and would endorse that shit, just a matter of someone hitting all these points. OR take the easy way and send the thread to the author of the article. IDK, just suggestions.

[justin]

DDDDDRRRRRRRRRAMA!


i for one would just prefer if the details and events of our scene would stay out of local mainstream media such as the forum or local news. because truthfully, there's no way anyone could understand everything about it unless they were a part of it, and some journalist standing outside the red raven and lurking a messageboard isnt exactly going to get an accurate portrayal of the scene as a whole.

remember those news reports on "emos" like the one in grand forks? granted that whole subculture is totally lame to begin with but do we really want our news stations doing a special report on all ages "hardcore punk concerts" and vandalism? no no no no no no no. think if some overprotective parents forbid kids who are legitimately interested in the music (there are some, most of us were those kids) from going to shows because they didnt want their sons and daughters to be exposed to an environment like that. it always sucks when show attendance drops, and we dont need something like this to make it drop again.



that was way longer than i meant it to be.

[phil]

Bill, i agree with everything you said except I think equating the aquarium with the raven is wrong in this case. The owners of the red raven have explicitly asked for these things to stop (with threats of stopping shows altogether), whereas the owners of the aquarium have not. Simple as that.

[beel]

This is true, I guess I should've constructed my words better. I shouldve not said the writer, but the owners of the Red Raven themselves. In that the owners of the Aquarium which are a bar/music venue can put up with this with over 21+ people, while the owners of the red raven a coffee shop (or coffee bar)/music venue, seem to not be willing to deal with it.

[kaseysbitch]

Apr 24, 2008 14:58:56 GMT -6 beel said:

Ever since I've gone to shows a good portion of the people there went to socialize instead of going to see the music.

I cant say i absolutely agree with that statement bill, granted you have been going to shows longer then i have. But what i really seem to remember from my first show experiences was that there was that mixture of crowds where when i was like a freshmen the dominant Age group were like seniors in highschool. To the small portion of the people i went to shows with I.E Charley Jed Etc.

But from what i could tell most of the people who always went to those shows were friends with people in the bands themselves so Socializing came with the territory as well as people watching there favorite local bands. But seeing things the way they are now adays. It really shows times have changed. Now were the ones outnumbered being old.

[Dick Boushee]

Apr 24, 2008 15:55:02 GMT -6 justin said:

DDDDDRRRRRRRRRAMA!


i for one would just prefer if the details and events of our scene would stay out of local mainstream media such as the forum or local news. because truthfully, there's no way anyone could understand everything about it unless they were a part of it, and some journalist standing outside the red raven and lurking a messageboard isnt exactly going to get an accurate portrayal of the scene as a whole.

remember those news reports on "emos" like the one in grand forks? granted that whole subculture is totally lame to begin with but do we really want our news stations doing a special report on all ages "hardcore punk concerts" and vandalism? no no no no no no no. think if some overprotective parents forbid kids who are legitimately interested in the music (there are some, most of us were those kids) from going to shows because they didnt want their sons and daughters to be exposed to an environment like that. it always sucks when show attendance drops, and we dont need something like this to make it drop again.

that was way longer than i meant it to be.

I agree to a point, I was calling for a response, not a detailed study on the demographic that is the "hardcore FM scene" we dont need a grad student sociologist doing his dissertation on it. What I was calling for was a lil more general, a response to the article, a response like what is on this board, that there is so many positive things going on, not just what got noticed/covered in that article. Thats all.

[kaseysbitch]

can you point out some of these postive things?

[Dick Boushee]

Just the fact that people are bringing bands here that otherwise wouldn't be. Simply put if PBP, Chris H and others stopped booking shows, there would not only be less shows but a complete lack of shows that are not labeled "appealing to the mass public," aka we'd just have bar bands and the occasional bon jovi, aerosmith, etc . . .

Seriously, this isn't obvious to you? ALL scenes, from big (Seattle, Austin, Chicago, . . .) to small (fargo, minot . . . ALL ND) need people to book shows, to love the music that isn't booked by big agencies. And to me thats all the difference, it adds some culture/life to this otherwise plain old city.

[Dick Boushee]

ALSO, even if you DONT LIKE the bands pbp and Chris H pull in (I know I dont dig them all, not by a long shot) you should still respect them/appreciate them for the reasons previously stated.

[kaseysbitch]

You didn't point out anything already known to the promoters themselves. They know that people appreciate what they do or shows wouldn't happen. I figured you were gonna point out many positive things that you mentioned not that we need to appreciate our promoters more. I think Constantly going to there shows and adding input to see if they can get other bands here was showing them we cared. But please you still need to answer my question on these many positive other things going.

PS, Most of the promoters now wont pull a ryknow and quit doing shows because they don't make enough shows. I can say without an absolute doubt that I have the upmost faith in what they can bring to town and will eventually bring to town.

[Dick Boushee]

Holy shit, I was not trying to point this out to the PROMOTERS THEMSELVES. READ and UNDERSTAND my statements before coming to these conclusions. It should be pointed out to the PAPER. That is all. fuck. Stop putting words in my mouth.

to break down my whole statement:

shows=good for culture

. . .didn't think anyone would try to bust my balls on that point. fuck. love this place.

[Wang]

I just wish more kids would get involved, musicwise. Bring the bands you want to see. Start bands, book shows, promote shit you like.

If you focus yourself enough and put enough initiative into it, you can make it happen. That's what we did.

It just pisses me off when people say, "OH, all these guys do is bring hardcore bands to town, BRING MY FAVORITE BAND you selfish asswholes"

We will not bring bands we don't like. Been there done that. If you try to book a band that you don't really like, chances are, you won't really promote for it that much, it won't be hyped, and nobody will be there. Unless the JC is a big part of the band, then kids eat it up. It's just not the same as booking a band that you think is awesome.

If that comes off as selfish, I'm sorry, but we are not here to make everyone happy. We are in this for anyone who likes hardcore/punk music.

[Dick Boushee]

I read thru my past posts to see how you could come to such a conclusion and the ONLY thing I could come up w/ was the "many positive things." SO to clarify, ONE thing, as in people booking shows of non comercial /"headlining" acts brings MANY positive things, like stated earlier, some culture, some diversity . . ie. the things that make a town worth living in, in my book anyway. get it? good, agree? dont care.

[kaseysbitch]

No chuckles i agree with everything you said.